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Roman orthodox

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The term "greek orthodox" is not as in-use as this article leads people to believe, why was my edit reverted? Akhshartag (talk) 21:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

what is Roman Orthodox? 174.101.111.113 (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 October 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Also OP has been blocked as a sockpuppet.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Orthodox Church → Greek Orthodoxy – The article about the Greek Orthodox Church lacks clarity, primarily due to its name. It's important to note that Greek Orthodoxy isn't a singular church entity. This term stems from the organizational structure of Orthodoxy, which consists of several independent churches. While some of these churches, though not all, share commonalities like using the Greek language and adhering to various traditions that distinguish them from other Orthodox traditions such as Russian, Bulgarian, or Serbian Orthodoxy. These distinctions can be observed in aspects like attire, liturgy, hierarchy, and more. For instance, articles on items like the klobuk, mandya, or metropolitan bishop regularly highlight differences between Greek, Russian, and/or Slavic traditions.

Greek Orthodoxy can refer to either this shared tradition or the collective group of these churches. It's essential to recognize that Greek Orthodoxy predates the modern independent country of Greece or the national Church of Greece, which emerged in the 1830s as a result of Greek independence. The national Church of Greece is actually a small component of Greek Orthodoxy. Kpratter (talk) 10:14, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nominator. Killuminator (talk) 20:39, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Distinction from Roman Orthodox Churches

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There are a number of formerly Greek Orthodox Churches, which went back into communion with the Roman Catholic Church, of which Eastern Orthodoxy had split off since the Great Schism. These Churches, sometimes called "united with Rome", have retained most of their Greek Orthodox rituals. I don't know, but I guess there must be some who use Greek as their liturgical language. Having this in mind, does anyone know if all of the Orthodox Churches "united with Rome" are excluded from the umbrella category "Greek Orthodox Church", with all its 3 definitions? If so, this should be added to the lead, as it is a major criterion of distinction from Latin (Roman Catholic) Christianity subordinate to the Pope in Rome. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 17:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden: Despite your comment being a bit biased ("Greek Orthodox Churches, which went back into communion with the Roman Catholic Church, of which Eastern Orthodoxy had split off since the Great Schism"), I would assume the answer to your question would be that Greek Catholic Churches (self-procraimed Greek Orthodox Churches in union with Rome) could fall under the second category: "any of several independent churches within the worldwide communion of (Eastern) Orthodox Christianity that retain the use of the Greek language in formal ecclesiastical settings," thinking of them more as "Unrecognised churches" / "Churches that are neither recognised nor fully Eastern Orthodox." Now, a follow up point would be if these Churches should be listed in Organization of the Eastern Orthodox Church#Unrecognised churches. Since Wikipedia is all about sourcing, you would need to find a credible source that lists them as such. Without it, I would defer to the editors of these pages. Good question though, despite not being WP:POV.--Coquidragon (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add the word "term" to the title

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Requested move 6 May 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 06:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Orthodox Church → Greek Orthodox Church (term) – There is a tag and lede content on the page indicating it is about a term, just as with Roman Catholic (term) and Catholic (term). There's also already a disambiguation page with the same title as this article, which makes things confusing. I made the move earlier but it was reverted. I felt it met the three criteria for an undiscussed move. natemup (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit war / pov-pushing

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I noticed a disagreement between two editors about Albanian Orthodox Church and Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America. It would help when both parties give clear, independent, reliable sources for their claims.

In short, I want to see sources for the following:

  1. the Albanian Orthodox Church is an autocephalous church. The given sources are not convincing of that fact. What I am looking for is specific sources about the church becoming autocephalous.
  2. that the Albanian Orthodox Church is also named the Greek Albanian Orthodox Church in mainstream sources.
  3. that the Albanian Orthodox Church is also named the Greek Albanian Orthodox Church only by irredentist circles, as claimed by one editor.
  4. that the language used in (some of the) churches is a deciding factor for their status as part of the Greek Orthodox Church or not.

I hope to see the sources soon. The Banner talk 13:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the answers you are looking for can be found in the article of the Albanian_Orthodox_Church.
A simple Google search, and you can see how much the name "Greek Albanian Orthodox Church" is used.
The churches in minority areas are all under the jurisdiction of the Albanian Church. The Greek Church has no jurisdiction whatsoever in Albania.
Another absurdity is the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America , which is still part of the article by the way.
It is quite ironic that the Albanian Church, which declared its autocephaly out of fear of the irredentism of Greece and the Greek Church, you find here under the latter's umbrella. HokutoKen (talk) 14:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I am asking for sources, not search it yourself. The Banner talk 14:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner:, several WP:RS scholarly sources covering either the efforts to establish the Albanian Orthodox Church by Fan Noli, achieving autocephaly in 1937 or post communist reconstitution and controversies are: Nikodemos Anagnostopoulos p.68 [1], Bernd Jürgen Fischer p. 53 [2], Agata Biernat p. 15. [3], Nicholas Pano p. 233. [4]. The example of the Albanian Orthodox Church has similarities to the present Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kyiv Patriarchate who after decades recently achieved autocephaly from the Ecumenical Patriarch. Calling that church "Russian" on Wikipedia is POVish to say the least, even though there may be sources, reliable ones too that do. It is independent, part of its own Orthodox tradition. As is Albanian Orthodoxy, with an independent church for almost a century, whose adherents strove to establish and reestablish it as its own institution and religious tradition within the wider global framework of Orthodoxy and not as a branch of another national church.Resnjari (talk) 01:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Resnjari already provided very good sources. I wanted to add that the Church of Albania has its own website and there they have a history section.[5] To summarize, the Albanian Orthodox Church declared autocephaly at the Congress of Berat in 1922 and the Albanian Church started to act autocephalously since then and had its autocephaly recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1937. In fact, if you look at the Wikipedia article on autocephaly, you can see a list there that shows that both the Church of Greece and the Orthodox Church of Albania are equal "Autocephalous Archbishoprics and Metropoles". The same story holds on every single Wikipedia article related to the Orthodox church, so we're basically arguing over established facts here. The Greek Orthodox Church and the Albanian Orthodox Church are equals and neither is part of the other. Claiming otherwise is equivalent to claiming that "Albania is a part of Greece" or something similar; we would not even consider such a ridiculous statement, why are we doing it here? Finally, regarding the language, that is regulated by Article 7 (Neni 7) of the Albanian Orthodox Church. Albanian is the official language of the Church, but other languages are allowed to be used in special circumstances, it has nothing to do with the Churches being administered by another Orthodox Church.[6] Uniacademic (talk) 09:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I assumed it would be for the better that way, without being influenced by both sides. Sorry, still learning. HokutoKen (talk) 11:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Banner:, @Uniacademic:, @HokutoKen:, in the introduction it gives 3 sets of definitions about what the article scope is. The use of the word Greek to denote Orthodoxy in a wide sense, the use of Greek in formal ecclesiastical settings by several independent churches and the church of Greece. With the first definition, one could find reliable sources here or there for several of the present Orthodox churches being prefixed with the word Greek Orthodox in front of it. The 2 sources which were used to add the Albanian church to this page call the Albanian church "Greek Orthodox", hence in terms of the first definition and say nothing about liturgy. Would several other Orthodox churches also get included in the Churches list, even in a historical sense if they have the word Greek in front of it? And if not, why is the independent Albanian Orthodox Church a special case based on a few seldom sources? Another POV highlight is the inclusion of the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America in that list, unsourced too. They never have called their Diocese "Greek" or used Greek in their liturgy. That's some serious POV pushing. Bishop Fan Noli who established it as part of wider efforts for an independent Albanian Orthodoxy, did so due to concerns over the Hellenisation of Orthodox Albanians. Moreover, the Diocese itself is made up of the Orthodox American Albanian community who vehemently opposed the Ecumenical Patriarch installing a person with Greek citizenship as head of the reconstituted Albanian Orthodox Church, post communism.Resnjari (talk) 00:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) @The Banner:: Regarding your point #1, that the Albanian Orthodox Church is autocephalous is not disputed by anyone, but it does not prove that the AOC should not be mentioned here. Regarding your point 2, there are already two sources to that effect in the article. The scope of the article includes any church that uses Greek as its liturgical language, and in the areas of Albania inhabited by the Greek minority in Albania, Greek is used as the liturgical language, even though the churches themselves are under the jurisdiction of the AOC. So the AOC does use Greek in some of its parishes, and thus falls within the scope of the article. I added a source to that effect in the article. Khirurg (talk) 22:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The previous sources don't refer to the liturgical aspect. They only refer to the church in a generic sense of Orthodoxy being called Greek, as was done at past times for various churches. This article has 3 multiple definitions, some wide ranging, some narrow for the article scope. Its very strict for that list using only churches and dioceses who call themselves or use the word Greek as part of their name. Only for the Albanian church are exceptions made. But since there is the historical definition, so many other churches can be added, like the Bulgarian, Serbian and even Romanian churches. And there would be reliable sources for that if one does a deep dive for content. But we don't add them because it would be WP:POV and keep it narrowed in scope. Moreover, that the Albanian diocese in the US was also even part of the list (unsourced by the way) smacks of POV pushing. It was established as an anti-Hellenisation measure by Albanian Orthodox migrants and in the modern period, it and its congregation strongly opposed the installation of Anastasios Ianoulatos as bishop in Albania - there are reliable sources for that i provided above. If where going to add the Albanian church as being "Greek Orthodox", then also Bulgarian, Serbian and even Romanian deserve a mention as being "Greek Orthodox" too, for those sources exist. You agree with that kind of POV pushing?Resnjari (talk) 00:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The AOC is not considered to be a Greek Orthodox Church in any way, shape or manner. The AOC was formed as an autocephalous church since 1922. Bibliography doesn't consider it to be a Greek Orthodox Church. The use of Greek in Greek-speaking villages doesn't make it a Greek Orthodox Church. Strong claims require strong sources and a citation attributed to a 1970 report isn't such a source.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Larkin, Barbara. "International Religious Freedom (2000): Report to Congress by the Department of State". p. 242.: The Albanian Orthodox Church split from the Greek Orthodox Church early in the century and adherents strongly identify with the Autocephalous National Church as distinct from the Greek Church--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just took a look at the source in the article that says that every church that uses Greek is a Greek Church. That source lists the Greek Churches, and the Albanian Orthodox Church is not among them. The inclusion of the AOC on this article is plain nonsense. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are three meanings of the term "Greek Orthodox Church" presented int he article's introduction: (i) Eastern Orthodox Church , (ii) a group of Eastern Orthodox churches using the Greek language in services, and (iii) the Church of Greece]. In my understanding, the list of local churches in the section "Churches" of the article refers to the second of these three meanings. I don't see the Orthodox Church of Albania included in lists of local churches that comprise the Greek Orthodox Church (conceived in this second sense), such as the one provided by Trakatellis. It follows that it should not be simpliciter/without any qualification listed as part of the Greek Orthodox Church. I think, however, given the term's meaning, that it should be somehow stated that, as already written in the relevant article, the Orthodox Church of Albania is a church in which the Greek language is used -- both in areas where Greek speakers are the majority among the Orthodox Christian flock and elsewhere. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 18:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point, but this article is not about every church in which Greek is allowed to be used. It is about those churches which are considered to be part of the Greek Orthodox Church. In the linguistic sense, they are the churches where Greek is the "official" or the predominant language. Otherwise Greek is used in some cases in a few churches in Bulgaria and Romania too, and maybe Ukraine since there still seem to be a few Greek-speakers. Unless this article is renamed as "Churches where Greek is used", non-Greek Orthodox Churches have no reason to be mentioned. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well if were going to include the Albanian church, then the Serbian, Bulgarian and Romanian churches are also going to get lumped as Greek Orthodox churches in a historic sense, since one of the definitions refers to historic designations and there are sources that refer to those churches with the terms "Greek Orthodox". A choice needs to be made. Its either all or nothing. My preference, so as to avoid POV issues is to keep it narrow, to churches and or dioceses who self identify as Greek or use the word "Greek" in their name for the modern period.Resnjari (talk) 00:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I find myself in agreement with the alternative that Resnjari disfavoured between the two he proposed, i.e. that the article's "History" section should refer to the extent of the use of Greek in a liturgical/ecclesiastical setting in the lands that subsequently formed autocephalous churches [Serb, Bulgarian, Romanian etc] -- and, though I know it is incredibile lectu, I had thought so when writing my previous comment, but ommitted adding it, as I thought the discussion only concerned the case of the Church of Albania in the present. With regards to the latter, though, the use of Greek does not relate exclusively to the past, but also to the present. Though I am not very knowledgeable about the Orthodox Church of Albania, it seems to me that the use of Greek exceeds the traditionally Greek-speaking areas of southern Albania, which in my view would suffice for the fact to be mentioned, given the considerable percentage of Greek-speakers among Orthodox Christians in Albania. I quote from Albert Doja, "The Everyday of Religion and Politics in the Balkans" in David W. Montgomery,ed. Everyday Life in the Balkans (Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press, 2019), p. 322: "On the Easter Saturday 2015 (April 11), when Orthodox Christians celebrated the resurrection of Christ in the Cathedral of Tirana, [...] the Greek archbishop of the Albanian Orthodox Church, Anastasios Yanoulatos, officiated not in Albanian but in Greek." In other words, it seems to me that in the case of the Chuch of Albania the use of Greek is both quantitatively and qualitatively important enough to be mentioned, given the predominant meaning of the term "Greek Orthodox Church" in the article. A somewhat similar case, as Ktrimi991 has rightly pointed out, is the Church of Ukraine, which, as I see in the article, has a specifically appointed bishop (I know not whether the Orthodox Church of Bulgaria or tha tof Romania is a similar case, and would be obliged if reliable sources are produced to this effect). Hence, in the case of the Churches of Ukraine and Albania I think that, even though they should not be listed as local/authocephalous Churches that comprise the "Greek oRthodox Church", some mention should be made about the present ecclesiastical/liturgical use of Greek, as it helps to complete the reader's knowledge about the article's subject. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 15:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've disfavoured it because of the POVish nature of the addition. Previously, not only was the independent Albanian Orthodox church included in a list which as a compact section implies the Albanian church is somehow subordinate or part of Greek churches, as a consequence of that addition the Albanian diocese in the US was also added (unsourced by the way) to the list. This diocese was deliberately created by Orthodox Albanians as an anti-Hellenisation measure, its congregation still being staunchly opposed to any forms of Hellenisation even in the modern period (i.e opposing Anastasios Ianoutalos as bishop) etc. Its inclusion in this article was provocative to say the least, while the two sources used for the Albanian Orthodox church referred to it in a generic way of Orthodox being "Greek Orthodox". As i wrote, a deep dive for RS sources can yield a source here or there that calls the Bulgarian, Serbian and even the Romanian churches of the Balkans with the term "Greek Orthodox" to infer Orthodoxy in general. Only now is the linguistic definition being proposed -yet still little in the way how it would be accommodated in the article without being included as a POVish addition to the article within that list. Another problem is the inclusion of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, even per the Trakatellis content, he writes on p895 "Despite its name, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch is, ethnically and linguistically, mostly Arabic." This church should also be moved out of that list section. This article wants to be both broad and narrow at the same time. In light of what has happened, especially with some provocative additions of dioceses which have nothing to do with this topic, its incumbent on editors who want to have certain content in here to come up with a non-POVish way or proposal of having it here.Resnjari (talk) 00:27, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Resnjari, thank you very much your response. Obviously, references to the Orthodox Church of Albania (or other autocephalous Orthodox churches) as being presently part of the "Greek Orthodox Church", when the latter is taken to mean the Eastern Orthodox Church are not sufficient in order to include the former in the list of the "Churches" section. What I would propose (with regards to the present and not the past) is (a) to use the page of the Cambridge Dictionary of Christianity that you just referred you as a source for the list of Churches comprising the "Greek Orthodox Church" which entails (b) removing the Patriarchate of Antioch, and then (c) to add a short paragraph below the list, perhaps forming a different subsection of the article's "Churches" section with an appropriate title (e.g. "Use of Greek in other Churches" or something similar) that is written in prose and informs the article's readers (i) that, as stated in a source I found in the article on the Orthodox Church of Albania, "Except for the officially recognized Greek minority areas and the Himara area, where the liturgy is celebrated only in Greek, Christian communities hold services partly in Albanian and partly in Greek", (ii) that the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has a bishop for Greek-speaking parishes (see here) and also explaining (iii) that the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch is actually an Arabic-speaking Church, as stated in the Cambridge Dictionary of Christianity, perhaps along with an explanation of the provenance of its appellation. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 05:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a RS with a full list of the churches that make use of Greek? Without a RS providing a full list, how do you know you are not creating a partial, misguiding POV list? Even in that case, unless this article is renamed as sth like "Churches that use the Greek language", there is no point in discussing non-Greek churches. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Resnjari, yep the RS does not include the Antioch church among the Greek ones, so it should be removed from the list. However, should it be said somewhere in the article that it is a non-Greek church that contains "Greek" in its name and is Arabic in language and so on? Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ktrimi991, I am afraid that there is a misunderstanding on your part, since you write that "there is no point in discussing non-Greek churches" unless the article is renamed "Churches that use the Greek language", as if the current title of the article refers to "Greek churches" in any sense other than that they use the Greek language. However, the Churches that comprise the group called the "Greek Orthodox Church" are not considered to be "Greek" in any sense other than that of using the Greek language, which is the definition found in the Cambridge Dictionary of Christianity that Resnjari referred to earlier and as is already stated in the article's introduction ("A second, narrower meaning [...] Church of Cyprus"). In other words, the "Greek" character of these Churches is not e.g. to be understood in national terms (which -you might already know- is a heresy for the Eastern Orthodox Church), but relates to the use of Greek in liturgical/ecclesiastical settings. [It might be useful to compare the Greek Orthodox Church (which is "Greek" in that it uses the Greek language) with the Greek Catholic Church, which is not a "Greek" Church in anything other than using the Greek Rite.] It is, hence, a disservice to the article's readers not to provide them with such information related to the article's topic, i.e about Eastern Orthodox Churches that use Greek, such as those of Ukraine and Albania.
You express the worry that mentioning those cases would endanger creating a "partial, misguiding POV list" if all such information is not based in one and only reliable source providing "a full list of the churches that make use of Greek". First, as I said in my previous message, in my view these cases should not be included in the list of the group of Greek Orthodox Churches, but should form a separate paragraph of prose. Moreover, do you imply that you have such a source in mind? If yes, I would have no qualms about using it for this paragraph. If not, I am wondering whether you would like to explain what substantiates your concern in this particular case. The reliance on only one reliable source for a whole topic does not by itself make the information provided necessarily neutral, as the source might be limited or partial. Furthermore, even if we were to find out at a certain point in the future that other than the Churches of Ukraine and Albania e.g. parts of the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia also employ Greek, I do not see how this ommision would render the paragraph not just incomplete, but "POV", a notion which would require reliable sources that negate the information about the use of Greek in the Churches that had already been mentioned. In other words, a question of "NPOV" could justifiably arise if there are reliable sources presenting a different picture about the use of Greek in the Churches of Ukraine and Albania, in which case they could be discussed in order to provide a neutral point of view on the subject independently of the fullness of the paragrpah discussed. If no such sources exist, it suffices to remember that Wikipedia is a work in progress, which everyone is free to expand or enrich, and that groundless concern about the supposed incompleteness of a paragraph is no good reason to withhold the inclusion of information directly related to an article's topic. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having the section called "Use of Greek in other Churches" is restrictive, as it only would be able to deal with the linguistic matter in relation to Albania and Ukraine, but would not be able to include information about the Antioch Patriarchate, as it should not be in that current list section. Ashmedai 119, to accommodate the linguistic content your referring to, the proposed section would be better named either one of the following: "Other Independent Churches", "Other Independent Orthodox Churches" or "Independent Churches", "Independent Orthodox Churches". Like this it would be made clear to a reader that the section they are engaging with is about other Orthodox churches which are outside of a Greek context and importantly independent. Ktrimi991 definitely the part about the Antioch Church needs to be elaborated upon.Resnjari (talk) 19:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
as if the current title of the article refers to "Greek churches" in any sense other than that they use the Greek language. Ashmedai, you have misunderstood the subject of the article. Read the first sentense of the article carefully. The article is about the Greek Orthodox Church in the three definitions of the term, not only linguistically. As such, there is no point to discuss churches that are not part of the definition. The article is about which churches are part of the Greek Orthodoxy, not which make use of Greek here or there. Btw, the addition of non-Greek churches would also need historical context to be added: how they seperated from the GOC, why they did and why they keep using Greek, the crimes and terror done by the GOC to keep them under control etc. Too much for an article that does not have non-Greek Orthodoxy as its subject. IMO, this discussion has reached its natural end, and we better move on to productive stuff. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had some of these concerns in mind too, and why i thought its best to keep it narrow in terms of the list, due to the multiple definitions of this topic, broad, narrow and so on at the same time.Resnjari (talk) 00:11, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who has been involved in Church-related discussions and/or improving church-related content in Wikipedia, If I may say: this topic doesn't have only one definition, but multiple, as Resnjari has correctly said. Therefore, the editors are called to show diligence and attention in not hampering the access of the readers to all these different definitions on the grounds that some seem to borderline on POV, which isn't surprising, considering that these concerns are expressed by editors involved in the Balkans topic area. It is important that the editors with POV concerns, do approach the matter encyclopedically, and that is, not from a political perspective but an ecclesiastical and historical one. What can help is that some clarity is added regarding the use of each definition for each case. I feel that, due to the complicated history of the topic, the input of third-party editors from the Church topic area who may have a great understanding of the subject, may prove helpful in that direction. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:47, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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